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Najbolji AI u igrama

@ G@W
Pa to je lako dokazati. Instaliraj UT99, doci od Xana i u frapsu snimi svoju igru protiv njega. Ja gledajuci ovaj video sto si ti postavio ne vidim nista specijalno. Bot ko bot. Tvrditi nesto bez ikakvog dokaza nema smisla. A tvoja tvrdnja da se ne hvalis pa bas i ne stoji :D
 
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Smem da se kladim da nikada nisi prešao UT bot kampanju (nije da se hvalim tim ali ipak imam iskustvo koje ti nemaš). Na ovom raspalom internetu se ne može pronaći nijedan članak na temu Xan-a iz UT 99 ali ja se dobro sećam priče o tom botu. On nije kao ostali botovi iz igre.

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Los mi je net inace ako hoces mozemo jedan na jedan. Nisam odavno igrao osnovni UT, ali znam da sam kampanju presao jedno 10 puta. Evo machine zna kako igram cod aquake samo igram na nightmare. Pa izvoli ako hoces...:D
 
Sta znam, meni botovi i na godlike umeju da igraju dosta glupo (mada priznajem da sam video dosta igraca od kojih i na novice igraju pametnije :D).
Ima nekih stvari gde AI moze da iznenadi, ali im se taktima u vecini svodi na tempiranje power-upova i pracenje path node-sa pa ako naleti na igraca puca. U duelu je bitno paziti na neke stvari: kontorla mape tj. ne dozvoli botu da dodje po power-upova (pogotovo stit i dobule damage), ne koristiti skakanje tokom borbe da ne bude hitscan rape (kretanje samo trkom, osim za brzo kretanje po mapi) i drzati dovoljnu udaljenost da ne bude shaft rape. Ako se ovo ispostuje veci deo posla je maltene gotov.
 
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Odlicna demonstracija AI-a u Half-Life 2. :d

[YOUTUBE]e0WqAmuSXEQ[/YOUTUBE]
 
Hehe, otkad sam video taj filmic, vise se nisam cudio sto ta igra nema nisanjenje:p
 
Mass effect 2 na jacim tezinama ima dobar AI. Ne postaju samo precizniji, pocinju i da se krecu drugacije.
 
Sada sam i proverio i definitivno AI igra glupo i uvek pada na iste fore, a bitno je samo postovati ova 3 pravila. Nisam igrao skoro godinu dana, probao protiv nekoliko razlicitih botova, doduse ima razlike u startu koja oruzja vole da koriste (ponekad i tokom igre, npr. neki vise koriste snajper, drugi minigun), ali se na kraju sve svodi na isto: idu po pojas, idu po AMP i gledaju da udju i blisku borbu da ubiju link gun alt fire-om. Sve ovo sto su me ubili se svodilo na to kada im prepustio kontrolu mape ili prilazio preblizu, a da nisam forsirao komboe bilo bi i ubedljivije.
Pitao sam druga koji je u prvom UT-u bio u top 20 svetskih igraca i isto tvrdi za sve delove od prvog.

godlike2.jpg


godlikec.jpg
 
Pa ako tvoj drug kaže da je isto onda je on u pravu jer je bio među 20 na svetu. Ali mi je malo neobično da se neko, ko je igrao takmičarski zamlaćuje sa UT kampanjom i prelazi je na godlike samo da bi igrao protiv Xan-a. Videću ako uspem da iskopam sejvove pa da probam opet ili pošaljem vama da probate.

Evo našao sam intervju sa Steve Polge-om, čovekom koji radi na AI-ju od 99 na ovamo. Nisam našao da pominje ono o čemu ja pričam ali je intervju vezan za UT3 (znam da nema nikakvog smisla da igra iz 99 ima lošiji AI od poslednje nastavka).

Los mi je net inace ako hoces mozemo jedan na jedan. Nisam odavno igrao osnovni UT, ali znam da sam kampanju presao jedno 10 puta. Evo machine zna kako igram cod aquake samo igram na nightmare. Pa izvoli ako hoces...

Pa ni moj nije bolji, takođe vozim wireless mouse.. Ali videću ovih dana da istaliram UT i podesim sve. Mada sam ja UT poslednji put igrao pre 10 godina. Quake 3 mi nikada nije bio privlačan, UT je bio miljama bolji samo što je Quake hajpovan do besvesti.
 
Naravno da se nije zamplacivao sve vreme igrajuci sa botovima, covek se takmicio u CTF-u (ali mora jednom i kampanja da se predje). :)

Imam oba demoa ako zelis da pogledas, mogu i da okacim video snimak ko zeli da vidi (samo ce da potraje zbog uploada), ali cesto bode oci da uvek prate iste putanje gde ih redovno cekam na iste fore.
 
lol za izjavu "quake samo igram na nightmare" :)
 
Koliko se secam... i FarCry2 - koji mnogi ne vole... imao je odlican AI protivnika u borbi... skrivanje, out-flanking, pojavljivanje s ledja...

E sad... AI je siri pojam od ponasanja u borbi; da li je trgovina u Oblivionu ili Stalkeru, pomesana s emocijama, takodje AI ?
 
E sad... AI je siri pojam od ponasanja u borbi; da li je trgovina u Oblivionu ili Stalkeru, pomesana s emocijama, takodje AI ?

naravno da je siri pojam od puke borbe. Svi dijalozi, ponasanje objekata , interakcija, levelovanje, sirina interfejsa, sve su to elemnti AI -a. I onaj lik iz paranoja questa je demonstracija AI-a, kakao i sam odnos sa npc-ovima. U Oblivionu je implementacija odnosa sa npc-ovima krajnje jednostavna uglavnom dobacuju identicno, kod nekih se mogao pokupiti i quest ali sve u svemu nista posebno ali sta i treba ocekivati?
za filozofske rasprave na pijaci u Imperial city-ju trebala bi potpuno nova igra :d

i za kraj pijani Shepard!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhRi00rY_DI
 
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lol za izjavu "quake samo igram na nightmare" :)

:trust:

Imam hiljade casova igranja Quake 3, tj. igram ga poslednjih 8-9 godina stalno. Ne znam cemu cudjenje a ovo iskreno kazem, ne znam kad sam stavio na nesto ispod nightmare, doduse nikad ne pokusavam protiv Xaera na njegovoj stazi, jer je to ravno nemogucem.:D


G@W je napisao(la):
Pa ni moj nije bolji, takođe vozim wireless mouse.. Ali videću ovih dana da istaliram UT i podesim sve. Mada sam ja UT poslednji put igrao pre 10 godina. Quake 3 mi nikada nije bio privlačan, UT je bio miljama bolji samo što je Quake hajpovan do besvesti.

Pre 10 godina i secas se Xana? :D Nije bio UT bolji, oba su bili predobre igre, samo sto su drugacije bili koncepirani. Inace, obe igre sam igrao do besvesti, ali Quake jedno 10 puta vise. :D
 
Zezao me glupi Fraps jer mi je non stop na kraju zvuk bio desinhronizovan od slike, ni xfire snimanje nije pomoglo, na kraju sam ostavio tako pa je potrajalo malo duze.
Na ovom se dobro vidi da samo treba postovati ona pravila, i da se maltene igra po sablonu protiv botova.

[youtube]awDbtzGS-x4[/youtube]
 
:trust:

Imam hiljade casova igranja Quake 3, tj. igram ga poslednjih 8-9 godina stalno. Ne znam cemu cudjenje a ovo iskreno kazem, ne znam kad sam stavio na nesto ispod nightmare, doduse nikad ne pokusavam protiv Xaera na njegovoj stazi, jer je to ravno nemogucem.:D

cudjenje je sto uopste igras q3 sa botovima na nightmare....i to jos 8-9god ?:) btw si probao clockbot-a za q3?
 
Nightmare zbog toga da ne izgubim refleks. :D Inace, nisam probao ove botove ali probacu ih.
 
Ovo je lepa tema za razgovor ali nazalost vrlo malo cega pozitivnog moze na ovu temu i da se kaze. Ai je u velikoj vecini slucajeva zadnja rupa na svirali. Ako pogledamo razvoj svih elemenata u poslednjih 10 godina a koji opet cine jednu igru, videcemo da je zapravo najmanje paznje posveceno ovom problemu! Nisam doduse igrao strateske igre previse ali sticem utisak da je Ai ovde najdalje dogurao, a kada je najpopularniji zanr u pitanju (naravno mislim na FPS) prakticno skoro nikakav znacajniji pomak nije nacinjen. I dalje imamo trigere u svim igrama, jedino sto mape nisu vise strogo linearne pa se stice utisak ponekad kada se ovako koncipiran Ai pedantno odradi da je nekakav bog zna kako veliki posao odradjen na ovom planu a u stvari prakticno nije naparavljeno nista bitnije. Ako izuzmemo hvatanje zaklona sto je u principu sitnica nista novo tu i nemamo. Protivnici su i dalje glupavi ko stangle i vrlo nekordinirano i nespretno reaguju kada ih covek napada. Postoji par igara u kojima je prakticno samo pokusano da se nesto pomeri sa mrtve tacke. U prvom planu tu mislim na recimo Stalker i eventulano Assassins Creed i to zato sto ove dve igre u svom idejnom koceptu odudaraju od vecine drugih, odnosno pored odedjenih standardnih elemenata nude i interakciju npc-eva pa samim time da tako kazem moraju da podrze znatno siri i funkcionalniji Ai koncept, za razliku od klasicnih shootera gde se sve svodi na otkidanje onih koji su ti sa druge strane nisana. Ostalo sto je izaslo a i sto ce tek izaci (Crysis 2, Rage, MOH, COD MW itd...) funkcionisace na gotovo potpuno identican nacin bas kao i one igre koje su im godinama unazad predhodile. Znaci, ne verujem da cemo ovde dobiti bilo sta znacajnije novo!

Daj boze da gresim i da me neka igra od ovih koje ce tek izaci konacno i demantuje! Samo nekako sumnjam da ce se to uistinu i desiti u neko skorije vreme!
 
Narodna Soljanka (ruski mod za stalker SoC), ai menja odela, oruzje, pretresa tela, ako nisi brz uzmu sve, ako ga kinjis udari te i otme ti pusku, panice i beze kad ih pobijes vecinu, kriju se, i jos mnogo stosta, znaci nema podcenjivanja, lazu, kradu, varaju... Nekako se osecas kao kod kuce :)
Inace u ovaj mod su ubacene mape iz svih delova stalkera, a ubacene su i raznorazne stvari iz drugih igara, Frimen i gravi gun, (znamo odakle), pa i cudoviste iz biblioteke iz metroa 2033.
Koga zanima vise o ovom modu koji se igra mesecima, i koji rusi stalno unapredjuju, neka me kontaktira, gde se skida i tako to.
 
Sto se tice FPS Half Life je u to vreme kada je izasao imao najsavrseniji AI koji je dugo vremena posle izlaska bio na prvom mestu.
 
Na Gamespot-u je izasao clanak o buducnosti AI-a u igrama (mada samo je pokriven FPS zanr). Ovo su misljenja developera o tome sta je uradjeno u prethodnoj deceniji i u kom pravcu treba da se ide.


Remco Straatman, lead AI programmer at Guerrilla:

"In general, I think game AI has gone from the stage where it was an achievement if it did not stand out negatively to the point where AI in most big games is solid, and some titles are using innovative new ideas. More development teams have also moved from simple state machines to behaviour trees and using planners in NPC AI systems describing knowledge of the world around the NPCs have improved with better knowledge for navigation over changing terrain, and more knowledge about strategic properties of the world such as cover. I also think advances in animation systems with better ways to combine various animations and physics have become available, which now allows for more realistic movement and responses to being hit [in combat AI]. Most of these systems were not around 10 years ago or simply could not run on the hardware available."

The terrain-reasoning systems we generate have also evolved over our various titles. We are now able to deal with much more dynamic terrain (like obstacles moving around or changing shape) than ever before. Our data on where there is cover has also become more detailed, something that allows NPCs to deal with more complex environments such as multistory buildings, etc."

Back when Straatman and Guerrilla began work on Killzone and Shellshock, the team’s goal was to make the AI system as capable of making its own decisions as possible, realising this would make things all the more fun for players. However, doing this in a consistent way proved to be a lot more work than the team anticipated, particularly when dealing with combat AI. While the goal of normal AI is to emulate the real-life behaviour of a particular nature (for example, doctor, civilian, or shopkeeper), combat AI works very differently. Firstly, its main objective is to be as entertaining as possible. In some cases this means being efficient at killing players; in other cases, it's more about making intentional mistakes and "overacting" by way of signalling to players what is about to happen.

According to Straatman, the area that needs most improvement in the game AI field is buddy AI. Because buddy AI systems often have contradictory constraints, getting this system right is often a big challenge: the buddies should be visible and close to the player but not get in his line of fire; they should stay close and respond to the player movement but not move around all the time; and so on. Buddy AI is also much closer in view to players than enemy AI, making any errors easier to spot.

"Enemy NPCs know what other NPCs of the same faction are going to do because they are all computer-controlled and can tell each other what they will do next. However, players are much harder to predict--if you would look at movement patterns of players, you will see they are quite strange at times. This is made worse by the fact that player turn rates, movement speeds, and acceleration are very high. The last point is the expectation of the player: enemies are only supposed to shoot at you, whereas buddies are supposed to fight and interact with you in a sensible way. We are working hard to make the buddies work better, because we feel that they can add a lot to the player experience when done right."

Straatman believes the struggle to make NPCs as human as possible is still very much at the top of the list for many AI programmers, with the future set to change the way we think about in-game interaction.

"The ideal is always to immerse the player in the game: the NPCs should feel like they are living and breathing creatures, and this illusion should not be spoiled anywhere. Within the relatively limited interaction you have in a game, it may be achievable to make the distinction very small. I think human behaviour is so interesting, and yet subtle interactions such as conversations are still out of reach of autonomous AI; games rely on clever scripting or cutscenes to get that across. If we as a field will master these types of interactions, more parts of the game can be interactive, and possibly whole new game genres may become feasible."

Alex J. Champandard, AiGameDev.com:

"We've realised that just borrowing techniques from traditional artificial intelligence doesn't work, and it requires a significant know-how to get something fun and believable out of those algorithms," Champandard says. "A large part of figuring this out has been to think about the impact on the player and the in-game results. Thinking about creating NPCs as 'computational behaviour' instead of 'game AI' sums it up perfectly: it's not about the intelligence under the hood, it's about what the behaviour turns out like: adaptive, credible, entertaining."

This recent progress means game AI is no longer the weakest link in game development, as was the case 10 years ago. While some studios see AI as nothing more than a necessity, others are trying to innovate in the field. Champandard says the best example of this is AI Directors in sandbox games.

"The entire concept of a sandbox game is impossible without AI. The idea that you can do anything in the world and its inhabitants will react to you would not be possible without AI to power those NPCs. I think the industry has already discovered that you need AI Directors to make sandbox games really fun. Otherwise you may end up with situations that emerge out of the simulation that are just plain boring. Using AI programs that 'direct' the game helps make sure you're seeing the best of what the game has to offer, as planned by the designer. This kind of technology opens the doors to new types of games, where the story is generated as you play. The progress is slow, however, which means it may take a few years before this becomes mainstream."

Matthew Titelbaum, Monolith Games:

Matthew Titelbaum believes future AI systems will become more immersive and allow for a new kind of gaming experience. However, quoting his experience working on the F.E.A.R. franchise, Titelbaum does not believe that giving NPCs more human-like behaviour is the way to achieve this. To him, it is not humanity that will advance game AI, but rather, more unpredictable behaviour.

"Most games take the player on a journey from point A to point B. Along that journey, the game presents the player with a series of puzzles to solve. Some may be navigational (i.e. how do I get across that gap?), some may be organisational (i.e. what order should I build things in?), but most of them rely on some sort of other characters' intent on destroying or rescuing the player. Without a series of interesting interactions with these characters, the journey can become fairly tedious," Titelbaum says. "It used to be acceptable for AI to have perfect knowledge of the environment. Now we have stimulus and sensor systems to more accurately model what an AI can conceivably know about. We’re also using planners, hierarchical state machines, and behaviour trees to map this out. The bar keeps getting raised as new concepts from the academic world steadily find their way into commercial releases."

"In general, I think human-like AI in traditional narrative player versus environment (PvE) games doesn't really make a lot of sense. The AI characters are there to play certain roles and be part of the puzzles along the way. They can be challenging, they can be unpredictable, they can even adapt to the player, but, above all, they have to be fun to solve. I don't see humanness and fun being directly correlated. I suspect Miyamoto-san doesn't spend a whole lot of time thinking how to make Goombas more human-like.

"That said, I think there are some game genres and styles where it may make sense to have more human-like AI. In a purely player versus player (PvP) experience, or in the real-time strategy genre where all player and non-player entities have the same set of choices, I can totally see the desire to have AI that behaves like humans. But, even then, do we want human-like AI or do we want challenging, engaging, and unpredictable AI?"

Titelbaum believes that as games mature and players' objectives begin to push past the 'kill everything in sight' trajectory, developers will create AI that is able to engage in richer, more immersive behaviour that will allow NPCs to express motivation and emotion not just through dialogue, but also through interactions with the player, other NPCs, and the environment.
 
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