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kovacm

kovacm

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28.01.2005
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http://www.computerhistory.org/events/

Impact of the Commodore 64: A 25th Anniversary Celebration

Last week I received a call from Karen Tucker, who is organizing the December
10th appearance of Jack Tramiel at the Computer History Museum in California.
The event will include key people from Apple, IBM, and Amiga (see below). When
writing the book "On the Edge: the Spectacular Rise and Fall of Commodore" I
tried getting an interview with Jack by calling him almost a dozen times,
writing several letters to him, and getting his son Leonard to convince him -
everything short of showing up at his ranch and demanding an interview. I'm in
awe that Karen has been able to make this happen. Apparently she and Leonard
convinced Jack that it was important for him to talk about his experiences
before it was too late.

Karen wanted me to pass on some information. Basically Jack is done with the
confrontational period of his life where he had to be hard nosed in order to
run a company in a cutthroat industry. He's now a retired grandfather who
spends most of his time traveling with his family. Karen wants Jack to feel
welcome, where everyone in the audience can listen to his history with an open
mind. Hopefully if he feels welcome at the museum he will participate in other
events and we can eventually piece together his experiences in the early
computer industry. Karen knows that most people will be receptive to Jack, but
she was a little worried that a few might decide to throw his kind gesture
back in his face by confronting him. If you know of anyone who plans to do
this, please discourage them from attending.

From what I could gather, this is in celebration of the 25th anniversary of
the C64. There will first be a one-on-one interview with Jack moderated by
John Markoff of the NY Times. After that, Steve Wozniak (Apple II), Bill Lowe
(IBM PC) and Adam Chawniac (Amiga) will take to the stage for more discussion.
The discussions will probably focus on Commodore, though it's possible his
Atari history will be included. Everyone is welcome and if you aren't in the
area there will be a video webcast of the event available on their website.
This promises to be a great event, and I hope to see you there!

More information should be available soon at:
http://www.computerhistory.org/events/

All the best,

Brian Bagnall
 
Poslednja izmena:
iskreno jedva cekam da cujem sta ce ovi pioniri / revolucionari reci! pogotovo J. Tramiel koji je "cutao" sve ove godine - nikada nije rekao zbog cega je otisao iz commodorea, postoje samo nagadjanja ali on to nikada nije komentarisao.

pored toga mislim da je C64 i J. Tramiel najzasluzniji za omasovljavanje racunara ("za mase, ne za klase!") - ne ni Apple, ni M$, ni IBM....

a kasnije i "Power without the Price!" gde je prodavao Atari ST za trecinu cene Machinosha i to sa 4x vise memorije i 30% vecim ekranom.
 
Poslednja izmena:
kovacm je napisao(la):
iskreno jedva cekam da cujem sta ce ovi pioniri / revolucionari reci! pogotovo J. Tramiel koji je "cutao" sve ove godine - nikada nije rekao zbog cega je otisao iz commodorea, postoje samo nagadjanja ali on to nikada nije komentarisao.
Kliknite za proširenje...

Pa šta ima da kaže... zna se zašto je otišao... zboh nesposobnog menadžmenta koji gušio r&d, velike birokratije, forsiranja propalih projekata (c16/116/plus4 kao konkurencija c64... svašta)
Da nisu apili projekat amiga na vreme, propao bi commodore još pre kraja 80-ih.
Iako se dosta često sreće tvrdnja da je c= ukrao amigu atariju, to baš i nije istina. U to vreme je vlasnik atarija bio warner bros, koji je na kupovini atarija izgubio oko 1.5 mlrd $. Prosto nisu znali šta da rade... i onda su ga "utrapili" Tremilu kad je ovaj otišao iz komodora. Dobio je firmu budzašto... još su mu dali grejs period od 3 godine. Otprilike kad je rasprodao zalihe 8-bitnih atarija iz skladišta po smešnim cenama + višak poslovnih zgrada i nameštaj iz njih, već je bio zabeležio debelu zaradu. U ekonomskim časopisima u to vreme su se šalili da je warner poklonio atari Tremilu i još mu dao malo para da ima za džeparac.:p
A Tremilova tužba protiv c= zbog amige je bio samo paravan, da ne bi oni tužili njega što im je poveo za sobom pola razvojnog tima iz c=, plus što je poneo sve poslovne tajne.
A to što je propao atari kasnije, isključivo je zasluga Tremila. Vukao je loše poslovne poteze, izbacivao je nekompletne modele sa čudnim i nekonzistentim oznakama, posvađao se sa dotadašnjim dilerima atarija tako što je umesto preko njih, hteo da prodaje st seriju isključivo preko velikih lanaca robnih kuća. Oni naravno nisu imali pojma kako da rukuju sa tom skalamerijom, istestiraju opremu pre nego što je prodaju. npr. prva serija st u americi je imala maltene 50% neispravnih kompjutera usled tumbanja po kamionima i velikih transporta od magacina do magacina - čipovi su jednostavno ispadali iz podnožja. (ovo je gore od xbox360! :D)
 
Jack moze slobodno da stane rame uz rame sa Bilom Gejtsom kada je 'razvoj' racunara u pitanju. Covek cija je 'vizija' ubila i Commodore i Amigu i Atari (Computers),...
 
Nek daju ljudima 200 miliona $ da naprave novi racunar za mase za poneti (za pod misku).
Motorola ima spreman cpu.
 
Koji CPU? Kada su prodali Freescale?
 
milanbb je napisao(la):
Jack moze slobodno da stane rame uz rame sa Bilom Gejtsom kada je 'razvoj' racunara u pitanju. Covek cija je 'vizija' ubila i Commodore i Amigu i Atari (Computers),...
Kliknite za proširenje...

mislim, spakovao si B. Gatesa i J. Tramiela u istu recenicu... sta reci c c c... :p

interesantno da ima ljudi kojima je J. Tramiel nesto najgore sto je moglo da se desi a neki ga sa druge strane extra postuju...

Kako mozes da kazes za coveka da je ubio Commodore kad je on maltene i napravio trziste kucnih racunara? C64 je prodat u preko 20 miliona primeraka i ja verujem da je to racunar koji je "kompjutere uveo u mase". Njegova poslovna strategija je dovela do toga da C64 kosta 200$, dakle da svako moze da ga kupi ! Isto je uradio i sa Atarijem ST - za manje od 1000$ si dobijao ultra napredan racunar (Mac je kosta 3x vise tad a o PCju ne vredi ni pricati). Commodore je tek sa A500 napravio pun pogodak.

njegova 'vizija' je sigurno NAPRAVILA a ako je i ubila Commodore i Atari ipak je puno ucinila za razvoj racunara i pre svega spustanja racunara u 'mase'.
 
dag je napisao(la):
Pa šta ima da kaže... zna se zašto je otišao... zboh nesposobnog menadžmenta koji gušio r&d, velike birokratije, forsiranja propalih projekata (c16/116/plus4 kao konkurencija c64... svašta)
Kliknite za proširenje...

buduci da do sada nista nije rekao za ovih 20 godina ima svasta da kaze :D

ja jedva cekam da cujem ;)

i lepo sto si spomenuo sve one propale Commodore projekte; dakle J. Tramiel je znao kako treba dalje (Atari ST) i on je osoba koja je imala viziju. Imao je priliku da sa ST-om zauzme dobre pozicije pre pocetka 90tih ali nije.

Ipak je Steve J. najveci vizionar (NeXT) :D
mada kazem ono sto je on tada radio sa NeXT-om to je i Atari radio sa MiNTom. Dakle nije bio jedini u to vreme sa slicnom vizijom ali je najbolje uspeo da se snadje na trzistu.
 
Poslednja izmena:
Jedini razlog zasto je Commodore bio toliko jeftin je Jackova bolesna ideja da potpuno ubije konkurenciju. Koliko je tu nefer igre bilo mozes citati na wikipediji, cinjenica je da je C64 prodat u tirazu od 20 miliona komada, ali je isto tako cinjenica da ga je trebalo penzionisati mnogo pre 1992-e. Samo da napomenem da je Jack T. iz Commodorea otisao (oteran) pocetkom 1984. godine tako da njegova zasluga za silovanje trzista 8bitnim racunarima i nije toliko velika... ali ideja da se ubije konkurencija je ostala u Commodore-u, pa je mnogo drugih racunara (Sinclair, Amstrad, Acorn,...) proslo neslavno u ratu cenama, na kraju je to skupo kostalo i sam C= jer je *****ska politika dovela do smrti zlatne koke, ali dobro...
 
Tramiel nije kriv sto se C64 prodavao do 1992. Zato je i otisao iz Commodorea jer su hteli staru tehnologiju da prodaju x godina (kao sto si vec napomenuo).

Ne vidim sta je tu nefer sto je spustio cenu racunara na 200$ ?!?! to je samo plus! (kupio MOS da se ne bi za**** ko sa kalkulatorima i TexasInstruments-om!!!!)

Bottom line: to sto je cena racunara pala toliko nisko da bukvalno svako moze da ga kupi je najveca zasluga J. Tramiela! da smo cekali na IBM i Apple ko zna kad bi pola nas prvi put videla/dobila racunar (pogledati anketu na benchu: vash prvi racunar).

Commodore (J. Tramiel) je kreirao celo jedno trziste, trziste kucnih racunara i omogucio da milioni klinaca imaju prvi kompjuter 80tih! Hvala mu na tome.

recimo, masa programera koja je pisala demo-e za kucne racunare danas radi na igricama za konzole (citaj PS) i do uglavnom rade ili kao sefovi ili kao strucnjaci za lowleve optimizaciju i izvlacenja poslednjeg atoma snage iz hardwarea (isto sto su radili i na kucnim racunarima). verujem da i danasnji kliknci mogu da "nauce" ovako nesto ali iskustvo je ipak iskustvo :) zahvaljujuci kucnim racunarima.

onda recimo i hardware inzinjeri koji su u radili na razvoju kucnih racunara su zasluzni i za mnoge tehnologije koje danas koristimo. Kad covek pocne da "kopa" vidi koliko ljudi koji danas sede na kljucnim pozicijama vuku svoje "korene" iz ere kucnih racunara :)

Samim tim sto je svako mogao da priusti sebi racunar - mogao je da pocne sa "eksperimentisanjem" i tada su se pojavili mnogi programi koji su i dan danas mainstream (Cubase, PageStream, 3Dmax, ... ).

sve u svemu jedno zlatno doba :)
 
Sa ovim poslednjim se ipak slazem, 80'te su bile zlatno doba (home) racunarstva...
 
kovacm, zaboravio si da spomeneš Klajva Sinklera.
 
Jeste bez njega bih ostao bez svog prvog Kucnog Rachunara.
 
evo i na amiga forumu

http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=4010

"Met with Dale Luck, Amiga software engineer, yesterday at the
Vintage Computer Festival 10.0. ...I mentioned that Adam Chowaniec would be there,
and he said that knew Adam. Dale was interested in going to the event
and would tell other Amiga engineers, too."

bice sigurno lep dogadjaj, mnogo kljucnih licnosti iz 80tih godina, nazalost bez Sir Klajva-a :(
 
Izvestaj na CNETu:

http://www.news.com/8301-13772_3-9832182-52.html?tag=nefd.top

Text je stvarno odlican, trebali bi da ga procitaju svi retro geekovi :)

A ima i jedan lep deo bash sto se tice Apple ELITIZMA (pozdrav za Ji 4Tz-a ;)):


"MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif.--I don't want to date myself, but when I was in high school, one of the things I remember was that, among the geeks like myself who hung out in the computer lab, a bit of a culture war was under way.

No, it wasn't Macs versus Windows. But Apple was a player in this battle.

In fact, it was the Commodore 64 versus the Apple IIe, and while the school had a collection of Apples in the lab that all of us had to use, those of us who had C64s felt like we we owned the superior computer.

Maybe it was because the machine seemed pluckier. More accessible to the common man. Easier to use. Better looking. Whatever. We knew we were right. Those Apple owners were stuck-up elitists.

I suppose today some people probably feel the same about the Mac versus Windows stand-off, and, well, once again, as a Mac user this time, I'm on the right side of the fence.

...

Over the years, I put that computer through its paces. I played endless games on it. I wrote BASIC programs. I word processed. I connected to my local BBS and illegally downloaded copied games. And so much more. That machine and I were like best friends.

I must not have been the only one because it turns out that the C64 may well be the best-selling computer of all time. "
 
Poslednja izmena:
Odlican komentar:
link:

"As an aside – I see the value of the OLPC to be the same as the C64 and other machines of the time. It gives people the opportunity to tinker and learn. How many technical people reading news.com started out with a C64, Spectrum, or Tandy.
Programming is programming. Configuring hardware is the same. Once you know the basics you can apply it anywhere. I’m still building computers and programming using some of the skills I learned 15-20 years go. It’s different but very much the same."

i josh jedan link:

"When I think about the Commodore (Vic 20 and 128 in my case) it puts a smile on my face. Why? So many reasons come to mind.

1. I learned to create my first BASIC program on the Vic 20.
2. I played some of the best games at the time on the 128.
3. It opened up a new world to me; broadened my imagination.

I can go on and on with reasons...

However when I think about it, the single most important reason the Commodore puts a smile on my face is that it helped a young Latino boy, of a single parent household on welfare, escape from the poverty, crime, and hopelessness that existed in the neighborhood at the time. It also helped that young boy realize what he wanted to do with his life. Work with computers.

So with that in mind not only does the Commodore put a smile on my face but it moves me to thank Mr. Tramiel for making the decision to keep the Commodore affordable for the masses. Because if he hadn't, who knows where I would be today.

Thank you Mr. Tramiel."
 
Poslednja izmena:
Pa sad iz danasnjeg ugla da su nekim slucajem mogli da stanu comodore i atari rame uz rame i nasli dogovor malo sutra bi pc zauzeo kucno trziste racunara ali sta se desilo desilo nema nazad
 
Ima, samo sto nema para :)
 
@milanbb sta si mislio ovim??
 
dejan rece: "ali sta se desilo desilo nema nazad", ja kazem "ima (nazad), samo sto nema para". Tj postoji veliko trziste (i potencijal) za retro/home racunare savremenijeg hardvera ali nema novca za takvu avanturu.

gledam koliko novca ljudi daju na ebay za A4000T/PPC - 3000eur, PPC kartice idu po 500eur znaci ludilo. ponuditi ppc/68k emul plocu koja moze da tera Amiga/Atari/MacOS classic i eto veselja. ma sve sam smislio,.... samo fali para :D
 
hahaha :D pa ti si "ludji" nego sto sam mislio ... :D

evo za sve geekove http://youtube.com/watch?v=-wtMEBPWeMo (@pouet)

ja bash razmisljam da bi idealno bilo kad bi AmigaOS 4.0 mogao da se potera pod npr. VMWare-om!
ja bih pre dao pare za original hardware tipa A1200 ili A4000 + turbo karte nego za bilo koji ppc/68k... bar mislim :/

i dalje kupujem A1200 + turbo kartu pa ako znate nekog ;) (btw otvori milane sticky za temu za oglase ovde u retro sobi!)
 
Bice sticky, cekaj da se 'ustolicim' :D
 
Evo josh izvestaja sa dogadjaja:

www.computerworld.com - The Apple II from Commodore? It almost happened
PC pioneers remember the start of an industry at 25th anniversary party

www.reghardware.co.uk - When Commodore ruled the world

www.macworld.com - Wozniak, others reminisce about the PC wonder years

PHOTOS:

Anyway, here are some photos. This is Jack at the press reception:

http://www.floodgap.com/temp/qDSCN0785.jpg

Jack and his wife, talking to Bil Herd:

http://www.floodgap.com/temp/qDSCN0795.jpg

The cake Liquid Computing brought along:

http://www.floodgap.com/temp/qDSCN0796.jpg

Bill Ward and I splitting the last piece:

http://www.floodgap.com/temp/qDSCN0800.jpg

And last but not least, yours truly with Leonard and Jack:

http://www.floodgap.com/temp/qDSCN0789.jpg

VIDEO:

CNET Video: Celebrating one of the best-selling PCs ever
 
Odlican video kovacm!
Licno dok sam koristio PPC karticu nisam bas bio preterano zadovoljan dobijenim jednostavno softver na toj platformi nije bas preterano zaziveo mada je bilo nekih benefita,na 160 mhz je skoro bas pa fino picio div-x verujem da bi graficka koju nisam imao dosta pomogla oko toga.Sta bi mozda voleo da imam to je klasicna naprimer a1200 sa besnim 68k procesorom i brzim ide portom.
Pod besno mislim neki 68k na bar 800mhz taman da melje sav softver koji postoji za amigu nenormalno brzo + nasminkam wb do daske.
Sad malo pomoci nikako nisam uspevao da poteram amithlon u vecoj rezoluciji od 640x512 da li je problem bila novija graficka (tad bese fx5500) kako stvari stoje danas po tom pitanju posto sad imam x2 3800 i 7600gs moze li se iskoristiti ovo do max pod amithlonom.Mislim gde ima patcheva za amithlon i slicno nesto bas nisam uspeo da nadjem nesto novije od updatea
 
Evo josh zanimljivosti:

Jeste istina da je Jack Tramiel dao par chipova Steve Jobsu i Steve Wozniaku dok su josh radili u garaži na Apple-u II :D !

"...But we gave Apple a few chips for free," Tramiel said. link

i susret Jack Tramiela sa Bill Gates-om

Doing business with Gates was decent, Tramiel said. "He came to see me, tried to sell me Basic, and he told me that I don't have to give him any money, all I had to give him was $3 per unit. I told him I was already married," Tramiel said.

Tramiel instead told Gates he'd pay a flat fee of $25,000, rejecting the idea of paying $3 for each Commodore 64* sold. "In about six weeks, [Gates] came and took that $25,000. Since then, he did not speak to me," Tramiel said. link

*ovo je greska u tekstu: misli se na Commodore PET a ne C64! C64 nije imao Microsoft Basic!!
 
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