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Dx10.1

Audiofreak = cutting edge!

Svaka chast za brzinu.

Respect!
 
Bilo na INQ pre par dana... Inace DX10 se nije pokazao dovoljno mocan... Verovatno ce i DX10.1 biti isti. Tako je to kad graficki API dizajnira neko ko ne proizvodi graficki hardware.
 
yooyo je napisao(la):
Bilo na INQ pre par dana... Inace DX10 se nije pokazao dovoljno mocan... Verovatno ce i DX10.1 biti isti. Tako je to kad graficki API dizajnira neko ko ne proizvodi graficki hardware.
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'oces da kazes da NVIDIA i ATI (AMD) nemaju ama bas nikakv uticaj na dizajn DX-a i da je sve do Microsofta?

I sta podrazumevas pod "DX10 se nije pokazao dovoljno mocan"?
 
Naravno da su imali kontakt sa MS-om u vreme kada je MS pravio DX10. Zato je DX10 samo podskup mogucnosti koje nude i G80 i R600. U stvari DX10 je presek mogucnosti koje imaju R600 i G80. Sve ostale mogucnosti nisu dostupne iz DX10. DX10 je veliki hype. Da je dobro dizajniran ne bi pravili DX10.1 specifikaciju.

Mozda sam se lose izrazio.. ali dosta naslova rade bolje u DX9 modu nego u DX10 modu. Ljudi su ocekivali veliki boost u performansama, a dobili su sasvim suprotan efekat.
 
Poslednja izmena:
Ko je rekao Crysis?
Dobar primer kako uz pomoc shtapa i kanapa izgleda skoro kao dx10, a u stvari je dx9.
Shto je divno😛
 
Ja koliko videh ne donosi nista radikalno kao sto ni DX10 nije doneo. Nigde se cak ne pominje context switching koji su pricali da ce biti glavna novina.
 
yooyo je napisao(la):
Mozda sam se lose izrazio.. ali dosta naslova rade bolje u DX9 modu nego u DX10 modu. Ljudi su ocekivali veliki boost u performansama, a dobili su sasvim suprotan efekat.
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To sto ni jedan od postojecih kvazi DX10 naslova nema "full" DX10 implementaciju, vec samo nadgradnju postojeceg frameworka koji je odavno razvijen za DX9 ne znaci da je DX10 los ili slab.
Suditi o jos infantilnom API-ju i jos infantilnijim drajverima za isti na osnovu postojece baze nazovi DX10 naslova, jednostavno ne moze da kreira objektivan zakljucak.
 
audiofreak je napisao(la):
Ja koliko videh ne donosi nista radikalno kao sto ni DX10 nije doneo. Nigde se cak ne pominje context switching koji su pricali da ce biti glavna novina.
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Hm, mozda nema radikalnih unapredjenja, ali svakako ima veoma bitnih unapredjenja koja ce se itekako odraziti na kvalitet naslova koji budu koristili DX10.1



Separate Blend Modes per-MRT i Cube map arrays su po meni najveca unapredjenja
 
da... kao i uticaj gama zraka na sablasne nevene.
 
Upravo tako 😀
 
DX je dosad bio vazna stavka u odrzavanju MS monopola. Izgleda da su naisli na odredjene poteskoce koje ce nadam se eskalirati.
 
Nedjo je napisao(la):
'oces da kazes da NVIDIA i ATI (AMD) nemaju ama bas nikakv uticaj na dizajn DX-a i da je sve do Microsofta?
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apsolutno: po x ti put - za fijasko sa nvidia 5xxx serije kartica je zasluzan M$.
nvidia nije spustila cene cipova za xbox, M$ im je uvalio kosku sa DirectX 9 specifikacijom i zahtevima (FP32 preciznost koji hardware nvidinije 5xxx serije nije imao) - ATI apsolutno dominira sa svojom 9xxx serijom.
M$ za novi xbox angazuje ATI.

eto sta sve M$ moze da uradi.
 
FX 5xxx (NV3x) je imao fp32 ali je u tom modu radio kao pas koji pokusava da trci po linoleumu. U DX9 spec pise min. 24bit fp preciznost. NV3x je imao fp16 i fp32. fp16 je radio brzo a fp32 jako sporo. ATI je imao samo 24bit preciznost.
 
eto, toga nisam ni mogao da se setim (detalja)!

znaci josh bolje!!! nvidia je definitivno "promasila" DirectX 9 specifikaciju sa svojom 5xxx serijom, dok se ATI nije nepotrebno razbacivao sa tranzistorima i napravio tacno ono sto je Microsoft propisao... cuda, mi cuda... :|
 
Poslednja izmena:
INQ: DX10.1 enables AA in DX10 http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/11/16/why-dx10-matters

YOU KNOW THE graphics wars are heating up when the 'presentations' start to fly. The latest one is from NV talking about their upcoming 8800GT/256 which will be out soon, but it is the header that makes me think it is more than innocent advertising.

"Kevin Unangst, Senior Global Director for Microsoft Games for Windows: " DX10.1 is an incremental update that won’t affect any games or gamers in the near future." He is right, mostly because it won't be out until SP1 hits, so no argument there. More importantly, DX10 and onward is tied to the broken malware infestation known as Vista, so it is really irrelevant, but there is more to it than that.

Lets be honest, DX10.1 brings a lot of new features that don't really matter much if at all, and you can read all about them here. That said, there is one there that will matter a lot, contrary to what MS people say. This magic feature is the multi-sample buffer reads and writes(MSBRW). If you are wondering how you missed that big one in the feature list, well shame on you, read better next time.

What MSBRW does is quite simple, it gives shaders access to depth and info for all samples without having to resolve the whole pixel. Get it now? No? OK, we'll go into a bit more detail. DX10 forced you to compute a pixel for AA (or MSAA) to be functional, and this basically destroyed the underlying samples. The data was gone, and to be honest, there was no need for it to be kept around.

Games like Quake3 would do a lighting pass, then a shader pass, and another lighting followed by shaders and so on until everything was rendered right. This was quite precise but also quite slow. Dog slow.

To optimize around this, a technique called deferred shading took was invented. This does all the lighting passes followed by a single shader pass. If you have five passes, you basically can skip four trips through the shaders. The problem? Because the pixel isn't fully computed, just a pile of AA data, there is no way for it to be read. This is horribly simplified, but I don't want to go into the low level stuff here, go look it up if you really care.

What this meant is that you can't turn on AA if you have deferred rendering unless you do Supersampling which is rendering it at higher reolutions and sampling down. This is unusably slow, so it went out the door, meaning if you were designing a game, you picked speed in the form of deferred shading, or beauty in the form of AA. Most DX10 games will go for speed, meaning the AA hardware will sit more or less idle.

DX10.1 brings the ability to read those sub-samples to the party via MSBRW. To the end user, this means that once DX10.1 hits, you can click the AA button on your shiny new game and have it actually do something. This is hugely important.

The first reaction most people have is that if a game is written for DX10, then new 10.1 features won't do anything, AA awareness needs to be coded in the engine. That would be correct, but we are told it is quite patchable, IE you will probably see upgrades like the famous 'Chuck patch' for Oblivion. Nothing is guaranteed, but there is a very good chance that most engines will have an upgrade available.

In the end, DX10.1 is mostly fluff with an 800-pound gorilla hiding among the short cropped grass. MSBRW will enable AA and deferred shading, so you can have speed and beauty at the same time, not a bad trade-off.

Since NV has not done the usual 'we can do it too' song and dance when they are being beaten about the head and neck by a bullet point feature they don't have, you can be pretty sure they can't do it.

Close looks at the drivers, and more tellingly no PR trumpeting that they will have it out before the release of SP1 almost assuredly means that it will never happen. If you have a G8x or a G9x card, the only feature of DX10.1 you will miss is the important one.
 
naravno AA radi u nekim igrama sa defered shadingom i nVidia kartama prostim forsiranjem AA iz drajvera i reimenovanjem exe-a u oblivion.exe dok to na ATI kartama kao sto je moja npr. neradi. Tako da nisam bas siguran da ima nekih bitnih propusta pogotovo sto ni DX10 jos nismo videli, ocekivati patcheve za polu-proizvode je po meni suvisno. Jedina igra koja mozda dobije patch ce biti UT3...nVidia to dobro zna, a dok ne izadje prvi patch i prva igra gledacemo njihove nove karte 100%.
 
Poslednja izmena:
Radi AA u igrama koje koriste "deferred shadowing", iliti deferred renderer samo za sjenke (UE3), a to nije isto sto i deferred rendering - all out deferred lighting kalkulacije (X-Ray).
Deferred rendering nije kompatibilan sa trenutnom MSAA implementacijom, sto ce se u buducnosti morati promijeniti, jer ovo je next-gen tehnika koja ce u buducnosti zamijeniti tradicionalni forward rendering.

This does all the lighting passes followed by a single shader pass. If you have five passes, you basically can skip four trips through the shaders. The problem? Because the pixel isn't fully computed, just a pile of AA data, there is no way for it to be read. This is horribly simplified, but I don't want to go into the low level stuff here, go look it up if you really care.
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starac je napisao(la):
Radi AA u igrama koje koriste "deferred shadowing", iliti deferred renderer samo za sjenke (UE3), a to nije isto sto i deferred rendering - all out deferred lighting kalkulacije (X-Ray).
Deferred rendering nije kompatibilan sa trenutnom MSAA implementacijom, sto ce se u buducnosti morati promijeniti, jer ovo je next-gen tehnika koja ce u buducnosti zamijeniti tradicionalni forward rendering.
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Upravo je u tome poenta DX10.1!
 
WOW ! koji lejmeri, to je trebalo u dx10 da bude, ne bi me cudilo da ne bude do kraja implementirano ni u dx10.1...Yooyo, kakva je situacija sa OGL 3 ? Dosta bre vise sa ovim dx prevarama ! (sad ce Kovac da se smeje 😛 )
 
Kad smo vec kod obecanja...

GPU Physics Dead for Now, Says AMD’s Developer Relations Chief.

X-Bit Labs je napisao(la):
Following the acquisition of Havok, a developer of physics and other interactive middleware, by Intel Corp., the world’s largest producer of x86 microprocessors, actual deployment of a Havok-developed physics engine for video games that could take advantage of graphics processing units (GPUs) is under bug question mark, said Richard Huddy, developer relations chief at Advanced Micro Devices.

GPU Physics May Be Delayed Till DirectX 11


Havok was an independent provider of physics engines and other interactive middleware for game developers before it was acquired by Intel Corp. this September. But while Intel Corp. said that Havok will continue to work as previously while being a wholly owned subsidiary of the microprocessor giant, it looks like the company may either abandon, or release without any support its Havok FX, a physics effects engine for video games that performs all the computing on GPUs.

According to Richard Huddy, who joined AMD when it acquired graphics chip company ATI Technologies last year, Havok FX is unlikely to be released at all or power many video games. While AMD admits that there are some games on the horizon that can compute physics effects on GPUs, it is highly unlikely that there will be a significant number of them, unless comprehensive tools for GPU physics are available.

Therefore, for AMD, which is the second largest provider of x86 central processing units (CPUs) in the world, it makes more sense now to promote physics calculations on its multi-core processors, granted that there are special development tools offered. As a consequence, without Havok FX and with no substantial intention to support it by AMD, GPU physics is unlikely to become popular in the short term future.

Still, physics processing on GPUs may get a boost in popularity when Microsoft releases its DirectX 11, which is projected to support additional features that will provide new opportunities for games developers.

Intel-Havok Deal Creates Negative Synergies "Everywhere Else"

Jen-Hsun Huang, chief executive officer at Nvidia Corp. that provides the lion’s share of discrete graphics processors, also said recently that Havok acquisition by Intel will create “negative synergies” for GPU physics. Nevertheless, he was a little more positive about the technology and indicated that there were other middleware companies working in the field.

“Physics is – physics processing has a long ways to go and there are so many companies out there. [There are] quite a few middleware companies out there that are creating technology in this area, and many games, many game developers incorporate their own physics engine. So my sense is that there’s a lot of invention still left to do in this area. I’m not sure why they bought that company, to tell you the truth. It might give them some advantages with respect to Havok, but it obviously creates negative synergies everywhere else,” said Mr. Huang.

Intel Corp. is currently the largest supplier of graphics adapters through its core-logic chipsets with built-in graphics cores, but Intel at this point does not supply discrete GPUs, which computational power is required for physics effects processing. For that reason, it was relatively important for Intel to ensure that Havok FX – potentially, a very popular middleware – does not make it to the market, as in the opposite scenario the importance of a high-end CPU inside a personal computer for video gaming would decrease.

Besides Havok, company called Ageia also develops different physics middleware and engines for video games. For the personal computer market it offers engines that can take advantage of Ageia PhysX, a dedicated physics processing unit (PPU) that should be acquired separately for about $200. Currently Ageia PhysX is not supported by many games and hence is also not very wide-spread.
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Typhoon.X je napisao(la):
Kad smo vec kod obecanja...

GPU Physics Dead for Now, Says AMD’s Developer Relations Chief.
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Fenomenalan bashing po Intelu od strane AMD-a, ATI-ja i NVIDIJE. Misle valjda da ako svi zajedno pljunu uvis mozda i dobace. :trust:

Jos samo fali na kraju disclaimer "Intel representatives were not available for comments during the creation of this story" pa da bude totalna klasika.

A i taj iz DAAMIT-a bas mnogo zna, nije mrtva fizika nego konj koga oni sutiraju. :d
 
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audiofreak je napisao(la):
A i taj iz DAAMIT-a bas mnogo zna, nije mrtva fizika nego konj koga oni sutiraju. :d
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Obrati paznju da se pominje "GPU" fizika i rec "za sada". prema tome nije covek nigde ni reako da je fizika mrtva, vec planovi kako je bilo zamisljeno da se ona realizuje kroz GPU. I ATI i 'vidija su implementaciju razvijali sa havokom kroz njihov novi "FX" API. Logicno je da sva ta prica pada u vodu nakon sto je Havok postao deo Intela.

Dakle niko nije pljupao po nicemu, te nema razloga da se strecas, pogotovo sto intel nije komentarisao pricu 😉
 
OMG mozda ce general purpose 4 core CPU da racuna fiziku. Ali neee... to bi bilo suvise logicno...
 
Nedjo je napisao(la):
Obrati paznju da se pominje "GPU" fizika i rec "za sada". prema tome nije covek nigde ni reako da je fizika mrtva, vec planovi kako je bilo zamisljeno da se ona realizuje kroz GPU. I ATI i 'vidija su implementaciju razvijali sa havokom kroz njihov novi "FX" API. Logicno je da sva ta prica pada u vodu nakon sto je Havok postao deo Intela.

Dakle niko nije pljupao po nicemu, te nema razloga da se strecas, pogotovo sto intel nije komentarisao pricu 😉
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Pa odavno je bilo reci da GPU fizika nema smisla jer je CPU taj koji racuna kolizije pa je velika latencija dok se podaci prebace tamo i nazad. E sad, sto je to ATI-ju i NVIDIJI bio dobar marketinski alat za prodaju skupih i vecim delom neiskoriscenih GPU-ova koji im je Intel kupovinom Havoka uskratio to je njihov problem, a ne nas.
 
audiofreak je napisao(la):
Pa odavno je bilo reci da GPU fizika nema smisla jer je CPU taj koji racuna kolizije pa je velika latencija dok se podaci prebace tamo i nazad. E sad, sto je to ATI-ju i NVIDIJI bio dobar marketinski alat za prodaju skupih i vecim delom neiskoriscenih GPU-ova koji im je Intel kupovinom Havoka uskratio to je njihov problem, a ne nas.
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Pa Havok je mislio da GPU fizika ima smisla, zato je i razvijao "FX". Cisto sumnjam da bi intel kupio neznalice...

Jedno je sigurno, njihovom kupovinom je presekao potencijalno dobar buduci profitni centar NVIDIA-e i ATI-a (AMD-a)
 
Neka se masina koja "gura" Crysis na VeryHigh spusti u mase (najvise mislim na fiziku ovde) i nema brige bar neko vreme.
 
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