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      Tema: Meltdown / Spectre

      1. #1

        Meltdown / Spectre

        “Meltdown” and “Spectre” - Every modern processor has unfixable security flaws:

        https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018...ecurity-flaws/

        Zanimljiv tekst, kako ce ovo uticati na trziste?

      2. #2
        Member Avatar korisnika Space Beer
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      4. Obični korisnici treba da budu malo pažljiviji dok zakrpe OS-a ne izađu. I to je to. Što se poslovnih tiče, oni pored zakrpa treba da preispitaju odluku o narednoj kupovini hardvera

        Mada cenim da će izaći gomila exploit-ova gde će obični korisnici biti meta, pošto je broj onih koji ignorišu update ogroman. Pa zašto onda black-hat hakeri ne bi uzeli poneku e-banking šifru ili podatke sa kartice

        https://videocardz.com/74580/amd-arm...security-flaws

      5. #3
        Pa da, ali fora je sto ce patchevi da imaju perfomance impact, u intelovom slucaju do -30% Znaci padaju cijene ili...?

      6. #4
        Member Avatar korisnika Space Beer
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      8. To možda samo za servere. Za desktop sve ostaje (skoro) isto.

      9. #5
        Member Avatar korisnika CountMike
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      11. Bogami nije, čak su i tableti sa ARM procesorima upleteni.
        https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...e-x86pti&num=1
        Menjao CountMike : 04.01.2018. u 17:53

      12. #6
        Administrator Avatar korisnika kUdtiHaEX
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      14. Meltdown i Spectre su dva totalno različita propusta.
        Meltdown je vezan isključivo za Intel procesore i u pitanju je propust na hardverskom nivou (u dizajnu procesora) koji je mitigiran ažuriranjem NT, BSD i Linux kernela.
        Spectre pogađa sve proizvođače procesora, dakle Intel, AMD i ARM. Za Spectre nema leka i vrlo lako je moguće izvesti napad kroz svega nekoliko linija JavaScript koda.

        Sve ovo nismo trebali da saznamo pre 9. januara jer je Intel pokušavao da ućutka sve već duže vreme, čak su i git komentari bili obfuskovani da se ne bi saznalo o čemu se radi, ali Google je prekinuo sa ćutanjem (njihovi inžinjeri su i pronašli propuste) i sada imamo haos. Koga zanima šta je konkretno problem, može da se informiše ovde:
        https://spectreattack.com/

        Zanimljivo štivo za čitanje:
        https://meltdownattack.com/meltdown.pdf
        https://spectreattack.com/spectre.pdf

        Tehnički gledano, Spectre je mnogo ozbiljniji problem, ali Meltdown je više u žiži javnosti zbog toga što zakrpa za kernele dovodi do rapidnog pada performansi, naravno u zavisnosti od slučajeva korišćenja. Za one koji se bave virtuelizacijom ovo je totalna katastrofa. Koliki su tačni gubici u performansama, ne zna se još sa sgirunošću, ali ako je suditi po reakcijama korisnika AWS-a (na forumu za podršku), rezultati su katastrofa (https://forums.aws.amazon.com/thread...hreadID=269858).

        Drugi razlog zbog kojeg će ovo loše da se završi po Intel je i ovo: http://www.businessinsider.com/intel...ip-flaw-2018-1

        Ko je zainteresovan za tehniču pozadinu Meltdown propusta i kako će implementacija zakrpe u kernelu dovesti do značajnog pada performansi, može da pročita izuzetno dobro napisan članak na Arsu ovde:
        https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018...erous-patches/
        U svakoj laži ima pola istine. Što znači da se laž sastoji od jedne polovine, koja je istina, i druge polovine, koja je laž. E sada, ako na ovu drugu polovinu ponovo primenimo aksiomu da u svakoj laži ima pola istine, zaključujemo da u prvobitnoj laži ima 3/4 istine, a 1/4 laži. Matematičkom indukcijom dalje lako dolazimo do rezultata da je limes istinitosti svake laži = 1, tj. da je u pitanju sušta i neokaljana istina.

      15. #7
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      17. #8
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      19. Click image for larger version. 

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        Fact is that all OSes will need to be patched, yours as well.

        btw sinoc sam instalirao kumulativni security update ( KB4056892 ) i ne vidim nikakve razlike u performansama (win10 64bit) .
        Click image for larger version. 

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        istovremeno otvorene dve igre (gw2 / wows) microsoft edge,chroma sa 8 prozora i win10 po default-u( bez optimizacija ) i sistem se ponasa isto.
        tako da ce ovi propusti imati skoro nikakav uticaj na nas koji zivimo u sporoj zoni pri dnu onostranog
        Menjao q4u : 05.01.2018. u 09:40
        Rat je mir. Sloboda je ropstvo. Neznanje je moć.

      20. #9
        Member Avatar korisnika Space Beer
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      22. Naravno. Nema razloga da ove zakrpe utiču na standardne poslove desktop korisnika. To smo znali odmah

      23. #10
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      25. naravno, jedino sto ja to nisam znao odmah
        Rat je mir. Sloboda je ropstvo. Neznanje je moć.

      26. #11
        Member Avatar korisnika Space Beer
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      28. A dobro ajde, malo sam preterao Ali vrlo brzo je postalo jasno gde se mogu javiti gubici u performansama.

      29. #12
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      31. #13
        Member Avatar korisnika kovacm
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      33. Divota ...dakle uspeli smo da svedemo moderne procesora na nivo MOS 6502


        Da li je to Intel žurio i jurio da stigne AMD tamo oko ~2000.? Možda je uzeo po neku prečicu?
        - "glupo je da ostavljamo rezultate speculative execution u procesoru, to će neko iskoristiti."
        - "nema veze, to neće niko iskoristiti. Ovako ćemo imati brži procesor!"

        (naravno, nije Intel jedini!)


        U svakom slučaju sad ćemo svi lepo da platimo za to.
        "Unfortunately, people are not rebelling against Microsoft. They don’t know any better." SJ, "For the masses, not for the classes." JT, "Everything is deeply intertwingled." TN

      34. #14
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      36. https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=118296441702631&w=2

        Various developers are busy implimenting workarounds for serious bugs
        in Intel's Core 2 cpu.

        These processors are buggy as hell, and some of these bugs don't just
        cause development/debugging problems, but will *ASSUREDLY* be
        exploitable from userland code.

        As is typical, BIOS vendors will be very late providing workarounds /
        fixes for these processors bugs. Some bugs are unfixable and cannot
        be worked around. Intel only provides detailed fixes to BIOS vendors
        and large operating system groups. Open Source operating systems are
        largely left in the cold.

        Full (current) errata from Intel:

        http://download.intel.com/design/pro...t/31327914.pdf

        - We bet there are many more errata not yet announced -- every month
        this file gets larger.
        - Intel understates the impact of these erraata very significantly.
        Almost all operating systems will run into these bugs.
        - Basically the MMU simply does not operate as specified/implimented
        in previous generations of x86 hardware. It is not just buggy, but
        Intel has gone further and defined "new ways to handle page tables"
        (see page 58).
        - Some of these bugs are along the lines of "buffer overflow"; where
        a write-protect or non-execute bit for a page table entry is ignored.
        Others are floating point instruction non-coherencies, or memory
        corruptions -- outside of the range of permitted writing for the
        process -- running common instruction sequences.
        - All of this is just unbelievable to many of us.

        An easier summary document for some people to read:

        http://www.geek.com/images/geeknews/...1_21__full.gif

        Note that some errata like AI65, AI79, AI43, AI39, AI90, AI99 scare
        the hell out of us. Some of these are things that cannot be fixed in
        running code, and some are things that every operating system will do
        until about mid-2008, because that is how the MMU has always been
        managed on all generations of Intel/AMD/whoeverelse hardware. Now
        Intel is telling people to manage the MMU's TLB flushes in a new and
        different way. Yet even if we do so, some of the errata listed are
        unaffected by doing so.

        As I said before, hiding in this list are 20-30 bugs that cannot be
        worked around by operating systems, and will be potentially
        exploitable. I would bet a lot of money that at least 2-3 of them
        are.

        For instance, AI90 is exploitable on some operating systems (but not
        OpenBSD running default binaries).

        At this time, I cannot recommend purchase of any machines based on the
        Intel Core 2 until these issues are dealt with (which I suspect will
        take more than a year). Intel must be come more transparent.

        (While here, I would like to say that AMD is becoming less helpful day
        by day towards open source operating systems too, perhaps because
        their serious errata lists are growing rapidly too).

        Ovi bugovi/problemi su poznati vec dobranih 11 godina, JEDANAEST GODINA!! I niko nista nije preduzeo da ih popravi. Ovo mirisi na NSA.

      37. #15
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        Citat Citiram korisnika: kovacm Pogledaj poruku
        U svakom slučaju sad ćemo svi lepo da platimo za to.
        Šta ćemo da platimo?

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