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      Tema: RAYTRACING - stanje stvari

      1. #1
        VIP member Avatar korisnika Nedjo
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        Exclamation RAYTRACING - stanje stvari

        Prosle nedelje, odredjeni publicitet je dobio clanak o modifikacijama id-ove graficke masine u cilju omogucavanja raytraceovanja umesto reserizacije:

        http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid...e=expert&pid=1

        Zanimljiv rad nemackog studenta. No, raytracing je jos godinama udaljen od real-time upotebe u grama. Najkonciznije izneseno misljenje o tome dao je Majk Hjuston, jedan od pionira u GPGPU vodama:
        There is also an upcoming I3D paper about GPU raytracing using optimized kd-tree algorithms and static scenes. (I happen to be one of the authors, and the work is an evolution of the Foley et al. work). The short answer is that GPUs are faster than a single CPU, but they aren't great at raytracing because of divergence in execution between rays. As the execution traces diverge in the acceleration structures, you end up with a lot of SIMD execution stalls. GPUs also have to currently to a bunch of extra work because there isn't an effective way to do a stack, so it has to be emulated or worked around via algorithm modifications. Sadly, the G80's 16KB of global memory between the threads isn't very helpful as it's too small to really do a stack for the number of parallel execution contexts to run efficiently, however, there might be fruit here. We currently are talking ~19Mray/s on an X1900XTX (Conference room, shadow rays), and about the same on a G80 with DirectX and the current state of the drivers and shader compilers. Using simpiler scenes, we can execute at much faster rates, but those aren't realistic. (All the current published fast raytracing numbers also do not do anything but trivial shading, but GPUs obviously do well here...) With heavier tuning via CTM/CUDA, we might be able to squeeze out a little more, but unless we can regain ray coherence, it's difficult to do leaps and bounds better.

        Cell is actually a raytracing monster, compared to other non-custom architectures, in certain situations. The Saarland folks (and others including Stanford) have Cell raytracers >60Mrays/s for primary rays. [b]Multi-core CPUs are also showing great promise as people are showing >5Mrays/s per processor for comparable designs[b] (i.e. no tricks that only really work for primary rays), and there is impressive work from Intel on really optimizing the heck out of raytracing on CPUs. My main concern about CPU implementations is their ability to shade fast. It's going to be interesting to see hybrid CPU/GPU implementations here...

        In our I3D paper, we argue that what you would likely do on a GPU is rasterize the primary hits, and raytrace secondary effects such as shadows, reflections, and refractions depending on your ray/frame rate budget. We have a demonstration implementation in Direct3D (Brook + D3D) as well as CTM+GL that demonstrates this hybrid system, and it was running in the ATI booth at SIGGRAPH and shown during the CTM presentations. The paper should go up when finalized in late January and will be presented at I3D 2007 by Daniel Horn. For raytracing to really get faster on GPUs, we need a way to deal with the cost of instruction divergence, and more importantly perhaps, ways to really build complex data structures.

        Regardless, we are still quite aways away from the projected 400Mray/s needed to approach the performance of current games.
        (I can't remember who stated this as a rough lower bound, but it was in the SIGGRAPH 2006 raytracing course.) We need a few more years of Moore's Law and a few algorithm tricks, mostly involving dynamic scenes, and things will start to get interesting. But, rasterization will also increase at or above Moore's Law as well and game developers will continue to find tricks and hacks to make things look right, or use partial raytracing solutions like POM.
        Menjao Nedjo : 27.12.2006. u 11:46
        magny_cours:Mislim da je podlogu za pominjanje te GTX 560 karte dao sam zivot

      2. #2
        Member Avatar korisnika kovacm
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      3. Moja mašina
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      4. jako interesantan clanak nedjo. vec sam postovao negde na forumu link ka www.rapidmind.net - oni u sustini imaju razvojno okruzenje koje podrzava i Cell i GPU a jedan od partenra im je RTT AG (licno nikad cuo ) koja je razvila software za RealTime raytracing predstavljen na SIGGRAPHu. Na sajtu se mogu pronaci i podaci o brzini ...
        komplikovano je da prenosim, najbolje je da sami pogledate tabelu u PDF fajlu. Ono sto je interesantno je da se brzina linearno povecava kako se dodaju SPEs-ovi, odnosno Cellovi. Za sada je doduse moguce imati do 16SPEs...
        "Unfortunately, people are not rebelling against Microsoft. They don’t know any better." SJ, "For the masses, not for the classes." JT, "Everything is deeply intertwingled." TN

      5. #3
        Member Avatar korisnika djsp
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      7. Znaci stize fotorealistika......svaka cast....

      8. #4
        VIP member Avatar korisnika Nedjo
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        Citat Citiram korisnika: djsp Pogledaj poruku
        Znaci stize fotorealistika......svaka cast....
        Pa 8-way CELL server bi mogao da je izvuce u realnom vremenu!
        nadam se da ce neko naci nacin da umrezi 8 PS3-ki
        magny_cours:Mislim da je podlogu za pominjanje te GTX 560 karte dao sam zivot

      9. #5
        Member Avatar korisnika kovacm
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      11. i da umesto sto navodi tomahawke ray trace-je igre ...

        znachi ipak je G80 G80 a Cell Cell
        "Unfortunately, people are not rebelling against Microsoft. They don’t know any better." SJ, "For the masses, not for the classes." JT, "Everything is deeply intertwingled." TN

      12. #6
        Member Avatar korisnika Mare
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      13. Moja mašina
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      14. Citat Citiram korisnika: Nedjo Pogledaj poruku
        Pa 8-way CELL server bi mogao da je izvuce u realnom vremenu!
        nadam se da ce neko naci nacin da umrezi 8 PS3-ki
        Da ali zamisli kakva bi magistrala trebala da to paralelno proradi, zato ne verujem da bi 8 takvih moglo da da performanse koje su jednake cell x8.

      15. #7
        Member Avatar korisnika genuine
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      17. pa netreba ti nesto preterano jaka magistrala posto procesori barem u rejtrejsingu ne razmenjuju skoro nikakve informacije... treba samo dovoljno kesa... mada u sustini tu je prica sasvim drugacija.. umesto da imas loptu koja ima 1000 trouglova da bi izgledala skroz okrugla ti imas jednu jednacinu koja opisuje loptu kao povrs i to ti je (X-X0)^2 + (Y-Y0)^+(Z-Z0)^2 = R^2 i time imas maksimalno kvalitetnu loptu... isto moze da se uradi i za druge povrsi tipa konus , valjak i sl.. da ne pricam o nurbsovima i sl.. tako da je kolicina podataka tu znatno manja za opis istis stvari nego kod standardnih igrica koje koriste aproksimacije trouglovima..
        Pa koja su to kola bolja od Moskvica?

      18. #8
        Member Avatar korisnika Mare
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      19. Moja mašina
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      20. Citat Citiram korisnika: genuine Pogledaj poruku
        pa netreba ti nesto preterano jaka magistrala posto procesori barem u rejtrejsingu ne razmenjuju skoro nikakve informacije... treba samo dovoljno kesa... mada u sustini tu je prica sasvim drugacija.. umesto da imas loptu koja ima 1000 trouglova da bi izgledala skroz okrugla ti imas jednu jednacinu koja opisuje loptu kao povrs i to ti je (X-X0)^2 + (Y-Y0)^+(Z-Z0)^2 = R^2 i time imas maksimalno kvalitetnu loptu... isto moze da se uradi i za druge povrsi tipa konus , valjak i sl.. da ne pricam o nurbsovima i sl.. tako da je kolicina podataka tu znatno manja za opis istis stvari nego kod standardnih igrica koje koriste aproksimacije trouglovima..
        A za koji algoirtam je ranije pisano da kada se jednom izvrsi distribucija svetla mozes maltene interaktivno tj. real time da menjas pogled dokle god se svetlo ne promeni bilo po intenzitetu ili po poziciji...

      21. #9
        VIP member Avatar korisnika driver
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      23. Pre nekoliko meseci sam video info da neki vec koriste gomilu PS3 u kombinaciji sa PowerPC procesorima, jer dobiju najvishe za najmanje para. Nije me neshto previshe interesovalo pa sad ne znam gde da trazim chlanak.
        無限

      24. #10
        Member Avatar korisnika kovacm
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      25. Moja mašina
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      26. Citat Citiram korisnika: Mare Pogledaj poruku
        A za koji algoirtam je ranije pisano da kada se jednom izvrsi distribucija svetla mozes maltene interaktivno tj. real time da menjas pogled dokle god se svetlo ne promeni bilo po intenzitetu ili po poziciji...
        Radiosity
        "Unfortunately, people are not rebelling against Microsoft. They don’t know any better." SJ, "For the masses, not for the classes." JT, "Everything is deeply intertwingled." TN

      27. #11
        Member Avatar korisnika Mare
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      28. Moja mašina
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      29. Citat Citiram korisnika: kovacm Pogledaj poruku
        Da to je to o ova 2 se prica od kada znam za 3D (a to je dosta pre pojave 3D igara)...

      30. #12
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      32. Ipak ovo nije primenljivo na igre...jos puuuuno vremena.Previse se odmaklo u simuliranju na druge nacine i optimizacijama da bi se sad krnuo raytracing...mozda jednog dana, na enterprajzu...
        Ali zato moz' da bude kickass za renderovanje animacija u kucnoj radinosti...mmmm Lukase, watch your ass...

      33. #13
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      35. Kolega sa faxa (Dejan Milosavljevic) i ja smo kao tudenti pravili raytracing. To je bio opako zeznut posao... '92-94', inflacija, spore masine, DOS (sa ogranicenjima), hercules graficka kartica (crno-belo, nema sivo), zeleni monitor, pa ipak.. uspeli smo da napravimo nesto. Evo malo slicica

        http://www.ddmrm.com/graph/ice/gallery/misc.html

        Raytracer je podrzavao svakakve modele pa cak crtanje funkcija f(x,y) ili f(x,y,z), fraktale, imao je podrsku za razlicite vrste kamera, refleksije, refrakcije, bump mapping, proceduralne texture, AA, ... Nismo imali nikakav 3d editor... modelovalo se u C-u, tj. kuckas koordinate objekata i njihove osobine, ukucas poziciju kamere, pokrenes prog i cekas... cekas... cekas... i rezultat je TGA slika koju mozes da gledas sa custom made viewerom na zelenom monitoru.

        Promuvajte se po sajtu mog kolege Dejana (molio bih... bez komentara na dizajn sajta) pa pogledajte jos neke slicice...
        pro’ gram mer (n.) - An organism that converts caffeine into code.

      36. #14
        Member Avatar korisnika kovacm
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      37. Moja mašina
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      38. Neverovatno! Zbog cega ste se odlucili da napisete raytracer?
        Ja sam kao klinac dva puta startovao PovRay ali posle pola sata i dve iscrtane linije sam ga ugasio

        Secam se kad sam startovao Heaven Seven na svom prvom PC-ju K6II/400MHz bilo je wow! jeste da je sve islo par frame-a na sekundu ali je ipak moglo da se gleda u 320*240 pokrenuo sam ga i pre neki dan na P4 DC/3.4GHz u 800*600 i letiiiiii... (citao sam negde ili intervju ili tutorial za optimizaciju realtime RT-a, ima stvarno zanimljivih stvari, izmedju ostalog i senke i refleksije koje se racunaju u dva puta manjoj rezoluciji pa se onda interpolacijom dobijaju onako nepricizne refleksije/senke kao sto opisuje onaj nemac ciji je link nedjo postovao u 1# postu...)

        mozda je interesantno pogledati i RealStorm - mozda ce na danasnjim masinama leteti ovaj test/demo.... pored toga interesantan je sajt, ima dosta informacija...
        "Unfortunately, people are not rebelling against Microsoft. They don’t know any better." SJ, "For the masses, not for the classes." JT, "Everything is deeply intertwingled." TN

      39. #15
        Moderator Avatar korisnika yooyo
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      40. Moja mašina
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      41. @kovacm:
        Pa.. bili smo studenti i interesovali smo se za kompjutersku grafiku. U to vreme nije postojala nijedna graficka biblioteka pa smo pisali bukvalno sve.. od crtanja tacke, linije, kruga pa do kompleksnijih stvari kao popunjavanje trougla sa texturom. Raytracing je dosao kao jos jedna od interesantnih stvari kompjuterske grafike. Pravili smo razne optimizacije za ubrzanje ray-hit algoritma. Sve smo radili u C-u. U pocetku u Turbo C-u 2.0 a kasnije smo presli na Watcom C 10 i 11. U nekom trenutku nas fax (PMF) je dobio PC lab sa kolor monitorima pa smo imali sansu da vidimo nase slike u boji!
        pro’ gram mer (n.) - An organism that converts caffeine into code.

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